Saturday, June 12, 2010

Howdy, Cowboy Bob!

Well, I had a nice chat with another crazed fundamentalist this week. Those are always fun.

See, I ran across this guy from New York named Bob, who runs a blog he calls Stormbringer's Thunder. (I think it's interesting that he'd use Norse allusions in his blog title when he claims to be a born-again Christian, but what do I know?)

He'd apparently gone on some message board (which he never identifies) and exchanged words with a group of atheists, and this made him cranky. So he made the usual mimeographed arguments, claiming that atheists "hate God and the Bible, but have no ultimate source for their morality."

Because, of course, anybody who isn't Christian is an immoral nutjob, likely to grab a Glock and start capping pedestrians at any minute. You know, like the Dalai Lama (I never trusted that guy...).

He almost made a decent argument at one point, saying:
Where does morality come from?

We have bunches of places for our personal morality input:

- Friends
- Family
- Man-made religious directives
- Society
- Our own experiences and opinions
- Race
- Social class
Of course, you read through that list a second time, and you realize he included "race." Really? Especially since the next line is:
Fine. They all combine to make us what we are to varying degrees. But they change.
It does? I thought that those back-alley race-change operations fell out of fashion back in the Sixties. (I mean, I know that it was a hit in Asia a while back, but I thought we were past that...)

Anyway, I figured I'd chime in and see how things went.
OK, I'll bite. Let's start with the most obvious issue here.

(Atheists) hate God and the Bible

Uh... OK. Do you understand what an "atheist" is? "Lack of belief in a god or gods" is not the same as "hating God." In fact, either state kind of rules out the other. At best, the person you describe would be called an "anti-theist."

What a lot of atheists do hate, though, is being lectured by smug, moralistic theists with no actual comprehension what the phrase "burden of proof" actually means. (You know, as in "You want me to fall down and worship your God? So prove He exists.")

As to the source of morality, you'll find that every society, not just the Christian ones, have some form of the Golden Rule - "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." As for other sources, you did a fairly good job listing them right there.

You really should consider those secular authorities a little harder, though - the fact that you can get arrested for killing somebody has probably stopped more people from committing murder than the Bible has (especially since the Bible speaks favorably of any number of immoral acts).
Yeah, I was relatively sure that last line would make him cranky, but it seemed appropriate.

And he answered.
Prove he exists? Sure, I'll do that at your command in the comments section of a Weblog. Here's an idea: Check the links on the side there for apologetics. The main problem I have with proving anything to atheists is that they refuse to believe any evidence that is offered, so I refuse to waste my time.

Atheists irritate me. Either it's simple, or there are so many different kinds of atheists, or... whatever. The point is to dodge and confuse the issue. You have your own definition of atheist, others go along with other definitions. But with your sneering remarks, you've shown that you do indeed hate God.

As for "burden of proof", smug atheists believe that everything came from nothing, and the Big Bang and Evolutionism are so full of scientific and rational holes, you can drive trucks through them. Yet you people insist that they are "facts", but "we don't know quite how they happened". Yeah, real science. Burden of proof, indeed.

And where do you think laws against murder came from, Cupcake? Natural selection? Darwinism? Human nature? Get real.

You have not shown me anything other than lame, canned railing that atheists spew all the time. And I have not seen that you have a consistent, unchanging source for what you consider to be your morality other than your opinions and emotions. Yep, you're rock solid, Sally.

As far as your misstatements and slander of the Bible, do your homework. You have posted a typical but ludicrous atheist response.
I like this guy. He's got spunk.

Limited logic, he ignores the primary arguments I made to rail against atheists who confuse him by not being cookie-cutter clones of each other, and he gets to throw in random insults that make no sense. ("Sally"? That's the best you can do?) But he's got spunk.

So I figured it was my turn. (I ran a little long. Had to split this into two responses. But it went something like this.)
Check the links on the side there for apologetics.

Unfortunately, all the reasons boil down to "you must have faith that God exists." Which offers no proof.

Atheists irritate me. Either it's simple, or there are so many different kinds of atheists, or... whatever.

And there's part of your problem right there. Atheism isn’t a religion - it's a lack of religion. Atheists are a diverse group. There's no single guiding philosophy, just a lack of belief in one certain philosophy. It’s right there in the word: a- ("without") + theos ("a god")

But with your sneering remarks, you've shown that you do indeed hate God.

(Sneering? Yo, pot - check your voicemail. Kettle left you a message.) I don't feel hatred for a concept I don't particularly believe in. I do have a strong disgust for people who refuse to think for themselves, and do ignorant, savage things in the name of their "god."

smug atheists believe that everything came from nothing yadda yadda yadda

Speaking of "lame, canned railing" - people who understand science realize that there are things they can't explain. Yet. People who don't understand science dismiss it and say that a Bronze Age mythos explains everything. By saying “See? Magic!”

And where do you think laws against murder came from, Cupcake? Natural selection? Darwinism? Human nature?

Maybe they're a system of behaviors that societies have agreed must be prevented, in order for said society to continue to exist. For that reason, those behaviors were codified into a system we call "laws." (Here's another hint for you. Nonchristian societies have laws against murder, too. Why do you think that is?)

As far as your misstatements and slander of the Bible, do your homework.

Really? You don't think that the Bible supports immoral acts? Have you killed a child for mouthing off to their parents? You should. (Lev 20:9) Goes hand-in-hand with the story of the bears killing all those children for making fun of Elisha. (2 Kings 2:23-24)

For that matter, all of Leviticus 20 is a killer. Literally in some cases: adultery or marrying your mother-in-law or daughter-in-law are apparently capital offenses; weirdly, having sex with your sister just gets you shunned.

While you’re at Leviticus, though, skip back to 19: note that you are allowed to have sex with another man’s slave, but you have to sacrifice a ram to do it. (Lev 19:20-22).

In fact, the Bible supports slavery very strongly, from Genesis 9:25-27 onward. It tells you how to beat them (Exo 21:20-27), where to shop for them (Lev 25:44-46), when to have sex with them (fine examples can be found all through Genesis, but especially 16 and 30). Paul even told slaves to obey their owners the same way they obey Christ (Eph 6:5-9).

Is setting people on fire considered a good thing in your world? What about abortion? In Gen 38:24, there's a pregnant woman convicted of prostitution. Though the leaders of Israel knew the woman was carrying a fetus, they still decided to burn her. Why does the fetus have to die for the mother's crimes?

Of course, abortion is fine if you're at war with somebody. Especially if they aren't the same religion as you.
At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women." (2 Kings 15:16)

"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)
There is, in fact, all manner of murder and rape in the Bible. But it's the good kind of murder and rape, because it's done in the name of the Lord, right? (Jgs 21:10-24, Num 31:7-18, Deut 20:10-14, 2 Sam 12:11-14, and on and on.)

Maybe you should be doing your homework. What d’ya think, Cupcake?
I thought I did OK there. Matched his tone, made some decent arguments. But it seemed to make him unhappy or something. I guess he was practically sputtering. Because a little over ten minutes later, he responded. (I'm not sure you can trust these times, though. Maybe they reflect when he clicked "approve" on my comment or something.)
No, gutless cynic. You're boring and predictable, you know that? You don't have any interest in finding the truth, you just want to cry about things that you don't like, taken out of context. Instead of investigating serious apologetics sites, you want to throw stones at me. But I have no patience for intellectually dishonest cowards projecting their inadequacies on me.
And then, about ten minutes later, he was back.
By the way, I know you don't have the courage to do this, but call Rev. Matt Slick at his CARM radio show. He loves to debate atheists live, on the air. You missed today's show, try Monday Or you can listen to how he humiliated an arrogant atheist just like you, with the same canned "I don't like the Bible" crap here: about ten minutes into the show.
And then it wasn't even five minutes before he was back again.
One more PS and I'm done with you. You quoted me with, "Check the links on the side there for apologetics."

Your response was, "Unfortunately, all the reasons boil down to "you must have faith that God exists." Which offers no proof."

Intellectual dishonesty. You won't even bother to check the links and already know what they say. You're a troll at heart, wanting to destroy the faith of others. Search this site for "Why I Don't Trust Atheists", and you'll see that I've experienced quite a bit from your kind.
"My kind"? Doubtful.

But I've been down this road before. So I thought I'd see if I'd run out the clock here.
Wow. Look at that. It took you three responses to fail to address anything I said. Does your entire argument consist of insults and ad hominem attacks? I'm just curious. I mean, if it does, I can see why the posters at that "other" site might have attacked you.

I mean, really? "gutless cynic"? "I know you don't have the courage..."? I mean, I'm hunting through your "responses," and I can't help but notice how you have this combative style, but you don't have any substance to it.

Oh, and the best one: "I have no patience for intellectually dishonest cowards projecting their inadequacies on me." Care to explain any of that sentence? Because it doesn't seem to apply here.

You're a troll at heart, wanting to destroy the faith of others.

Really? All I've done is pointed out statements you've made in the course of this one thread, which were either mistaken or openly dishonest. When did I try to "destroy your faith"? You're the one trying to ridicule atheists, but refusing to answer any questions.

Here's something you should consider, though. Reread everything you've written. Then consider the following:

For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned. (Matthew 12:37)

With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men who are made in God’s likeness. Out of the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things should not be this way. (James 3:9-10)

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. (Matthew 12:34-36)

Do you want to actually discuss issues, or do you just want to throw insults? Because I'm only seeing you "bringing forth evil things."
And he jumped all over that, too.
Oh, drop the innocent victim act, I've seen that time and time again, too. While projecting your failures and atheist script onto me, you do the things you are accusing me of by dodging my points. You are done here, Bubbles. This is not an atheist troll playground.
So, yeah. Not too happy with me.

(* sigh *)

And I do so try to talk with people. Why must they be unreasonable? Is it my cologne?

So, to recap: he's got no arguments that don't boil down to "You suck and I hate you!" He can't accept that anyone doesn't believe in his myth-system, but he's unable to articulate it, and he believes that random insults constitute proof that he's correct. Like I said. Spunk.

I liked the way he kept talking about me "projecting" onto him. It's like he almost understood what he was doing in his responses.

Besides. I'm an agnostic troll.


Stormbringer said...

Fundamentalist? Bloody fool, if you'd bothered to read any of my other material instead of making an assumption that I'm a fundamentalist, you'd know better instead of embarrassing yourself again. Truth is, if you dare to try to handle it, is that I have only recently returned to my faith, and I haven't set foot in a church in fifteen years! "Fundamentalist" indeed.

You say you're an agnostic. Agnostic my eye. You are a stone thrower that wants to bring down the faith of others, just like the other gutless atheists. You assumed things about me, and about my links, but did not check them out.

You have a grave (and I believe that it's deliberate) misunderstanding of the Old Testament (you "prove" your case by taking things out of context from the Bible as well as history, culture, language and even the situations), and you ignore the New Testament completely.

You are a liar and a fool. Check out my article on "Why I Do Not Trust Atheists" and you will see many of your behaviors listed before you even visited. Prophetic? Nope. It's just that you lot are boring and predictable.

Nameless Cynic said...

My goodness, you are an angry, angry man, aren't you?

You claim that you aren't a fundamentalist because you don't belong to a specific church? Well, let's see.

1. You are the type of Christian who wants to preach to everyone (I'm judging you by your actions, not your words).

2. You are, by your own admission, a "Biblical Creationist."

3. You are completely intolerant (despite your claims in several places) of opposing viewpoints. At least, any viewpoint that doesn't accept the story of Magic Old Man in the Sky (and His Son, who, through a fascinating twist of mythology, is also Him) as being the full and complete Truth.

So I'm pretty comfortable with saying you're a fundamentalist, despite your wish to quibble over semantics.

You assumed things about me, and about my links, but did not check them out.

Not true. Been to CARM before; likewise "Christian Apologetics" (are they ever going to update that site design? It looks like a Geocities site from the 80s). They are, as I described, completely devoid of any explanation that doesn't boil down to "You have to have Faith."

"Stonethrower"? Yeah, I'll take that one. I throw stones at idiots who make obviously false claims. For example, "atheists hate God." You can't hate what you don't believe in.

I mean, it's fairly obvious why you would make that claim. You've wrapped yourself up in the Christian label, and have that whole "belief in God" thing deeply ingrained in your psyche. As far as you can tell, it is the inalterable truth. To the point that you assume that everybody else must realize that it's the Truth as well, and so the only explanation for disbelief is that the atheists must hate Him.

Or let me turn it the other way. Why do you hate Zeus? If you would just open your heart and accept the love of the Olympian Father, all would be made plain. Why do you hate Him?

You have a grave (and I believe that it's deliberate) misunderstanding of the Old Testament

No, afraid not. The OT is the writings of a savage Bronze Age deity, and reflects the thinking of the time. Sadly, that thinking has mostly been replaced, but the words are still there. The whole "God of Love" thing is an attitude that came from the NT - the OT is based strictly on "rule by fear." I will admit that it's easier to pull from, though.

you ignore the New Testament completely.

Absolutely right. That bit from Ephesians telling slaves to obey their masters must have been a late Old Testament entry, huh?

You are self-deluded and a fool. And incidentally, if this is an example of your "debating style" on those other sites, I'd say that there's a good chance that this is why you get attacked. Maybe you should consider taking a softer tone. Or stop going there and trying to convert people through ridicule. They probably don't appreciate being called fools. Any more, apparently, than you do.

Anonymous said...

You're so convincing that other atheists are saying that Stormbringer made up those comments you put on his site & you're his sock puppet. Baaaaaad commentary on your skills.

Nameless Cynic said...

Yeah. And these "other" atheists are who, exactly?

Yeah, thought so. Thanks for the input, Patsy. (Oh, sorry. "Nicky" - who doesn't seem to exist on the former AIM servers anymore...)

Don't you have anything better to do than to stalk here? Like... hell, I don't know... I'm sure there's some porn sites you haven't hit in a while. I mean, use some Handiwipes or something - you don't want to get Cheetos dust on your private parts. But still, this whole "lurking anonymously" thing really isn't doing it for you. Know what I'm saying?

Anonymous said...

Try sending me mail on aol dickweed. If I didn't have an account I couldn't post in open id. Holy shit you;re hateful!

Since I screwed up & didn't give the link before here it is but its my last favour to you.

Nameless Cynic said...

You are somebody else? Just with the same high-quality rhetorical style? Imagine that.

You know, I find it fascinating that people like old Stormcloud here likes to get all huffy about "Arrogant Atheists" (he loves him some unnecessary capitalization), without ever considering the obvious parallel of "Arrogant Christians."

Yeah, I'll get around to your little site, Nicky. (I don't hold out much hope, considering your writing and debating skills here, though.) I'm on music and biographies right now, though.

Nameless Cynic said...

OK, full disclosure here. Patsy had no debating skills, but he usually spelled things right, and knew the difference between a semi-colon and an apostrophe.

So, you know, there you go.

The Real World said...

Does Nicky understand irony? Because I like how, the first time he's ever written to you, he called you "dickweed" and then said "Holy shit you;re hateful!"

rhiggs said...

Just to clarify, the comments that Nicky is referring to were attributed (by Stormbringer himself) to someone called Bullhorn Twotails, not to Nameless Cynic.

However, there is no evidence that said comments ever existed. This is not all that surprising. Stormbringer has been caught sock-puppeting comments before. He is probably one of the most dishonest, rude, ignorant and hateful people I have ever encountered.

StevenK said...

Hello again, NC, nice to see you haven't lost your touch. BTW, Nicky's been peeing on your "Let them eat dumpster scraps" thread; just a little something you might want to deal with later. Peace out, dude.


Nameless Cynic said...

Thanks, Steven. I went and played on his "" site. Forgot he had his own.

Nameless Cynic said...

Wow. Not even worth going to. He posts stupid pictures and videos. Minimal words involved. And not showing many of those "Christian values" that he thinks I don't display. It's kind of sad.

(Plus, you have to go through hoops - at least one hoop - to post responses, and Nicky AOLdolini isn't worth even that much work.)

Alex B said...

Bit late to the game here, but I think Nicky and Bob 'Stormdrain' Sorensen are actually the same person.