tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post423487251050789389..comments2024-01-10T14:58:00.833-07:00Comments on Nameless Cynic: The Bible doesn't condemn gays. Live with it.Nameless Cynichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17963921060024737712noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-79446081898025948822016-08-10T09:05:26.979-06:002016-08-10T09:05:26.979-06:00This is Alex again. I'd like to apologize for ...This is Alex again. I'd like to apologize for the comments I wrote on this site. Partly because I can't believe I actually got into a comment war with somebody and partly because, reading back over mine, I realize how self-righteous and naive I sounded. I definitely done a lot of research and thinking into this issue, partly due to some of the points you brought up and I've come to grips with he fact that this issue is far greater and more complex than I first thought. Although I'm not still not 100% on what a Christian perspective should be on this, I'm leaning towards the fact that homosexuality was simply condemned due to various reasons that applied to Biblical times, for example temple prostitution like you mentioned. I would just like to say I'm extremely sorry for the way I represented Christians and Christ as well as the way I treated you.alexr65https://www.blogger.com/profile/10480217227677507809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-52117643425162730682014-05-27T00:47:54.262-06:002014-05-27T00:47:54.262-06:00Sorry, Alex. Accidentally deleted your self-import...Sorry, Alex. Accidentally deleted your self-important "well, I'm done here." Not a great loss, to be honest: you're still filtering everything through your tiny little lens.<br /><br />No, you didn't piss me off. I talk like that to everyone. In real life, they take it in the spirit it's intended. But you can't see the humor, and it's hitting a little too close to home, so you choose to interpret it as anger.<br /><br />Nope. Sorry, bucko. I just don't choose to respect your beliefs, any more than you choose to respect my lack thereof. Because until your beliefs allow you to treat people equally, why should I grant you the same dignity?Nameless Cynichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963921060024737712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-18950621423360103632014-05-25T21:45:43.207-06:002014-05-25T21:45:43.207-06:00Wow. You are one self-important son of a bitch, ar...Wow. You are one self-important son of a bitch, aren't you?<br /><br />"you can't categorize an entire people like that." I can't? Google "homosexuals turn their backs on christ," and go explain to each of those 65 million hits you get that they're wrong. See where it gets you.<br /><br />"if you have such a good understanding of the Bible you know very well that people half way around the world raised in a different religion will still hear about God and have the chance to come to know him."<br />Really? You know how Muslims are treated in the English-speaking world? Yeah, that gives them a good impression of "Christian love," doesn't it? So what's their incentive to convert again?<br /><br />"Perhaps you should... meet some Christians" - whoops, hang on. Let me scroll back up about 5 or 6 comments... yeah, mentioned my relatives... mentioned the wife, and my time in military chapels... See, I think I've found your problem. Your reading comprehension really sucks.<br /><br />"Perhaps you should reread the Bible" - or perhaps you should, since you don't seem to really know that much about it. Does this go back to that "reading comprehension" problem?<br /><br />Here. Let me see if I can <a href="http://namelesscynic.blogspot.com/search/label/Sunday%20School" rel="nofollow">help out</a> with a little light reading to start you off.Nameless Cynichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963921060024737712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-72111098144941968392014-05-25T10:07:39.531-06:002014-05-25T10:07:39.531-06:00I think you have a very skewed perspective of Chri...I think you have a very skewed perspective of Christians and God. If Christians are the most self-important humans beings and only go to church on Sundays and Prostrate themselves, then we as Christians have failed. I don't know which Christians you have met, but you can't categorize an entire people like that. And if you have such a good understanding of the Bible you know very well that people half way around the world raised in a different religion will still hear about God and have the chance to come to know him. <br /><br />Now I don't spend my entire life denigrating other people and making them feel like crap, I spend my life building people up, following out my Lords laws and trying to bring people to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. <br /><br /> Perhaps you should reread the Bible, meet some Christians, because Jesus and his followers are here to help you and everyone else, not hurt you. And thats what I intend to do with my life and I hope you come to realize this too.alexr65https://www.blogger.com/profile/10480217227677507809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-58908949153293438192014-05-23T07:24:04.937-06:002014-05-23T07:24:04.937-06:00Really? I've always wondered about that. How i...Really? I've always wondered about that. How is it that you justify that somebody is going to go to heaven, despite spending their entire life denigrating other people and making them feel like crap? <br /><br />You're saying that the worst, most self-important human beings are going to end up in heaven because they go to church on Sundays and prostrate themselves? But meanwhile, the entire half of the world raised in a different religion, even if they spend their entire lives helping other people and feeding the poor, are doomed to hell?<br /><br />You're saying that God, who created the entire universe and everything in it, needs you to drop to your knees and tell Him what an awesome dude He is? That His self-confidence is so low that if you don't spend all your time mouthing meaningless words about how He is "worthy" and "great," He's going to make you suffer for all eternity? No matter how you spend your life otherwise?<br /><br />Your god is a little petty, isn't He?Nameless Cynichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963921060024737712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-91869749387560009682014-05-23T06:10:07.982-06:002014-05-23T06:10:07.982-06:00I understand that, but what do you believe about J...I understand that, but what do you believe about Jesus and religion? Evolutionism? Because whether or not your saved is a much greater issue than how you believe homosexuals should be treated.alexr65https://www.blogger.com/profile/10480217227677507809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-57922152530688042682014-05-22T08:26:27.982-06:002014-05-22T08:26:27.982-06:00Fairly simple. I believe that homosexuals should b...Fairly simple. I believe that homosexuals should be treated fairly and not discriminated against. Particularly not for a long-standing mistranslation.Nameless Cynichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963921060024737712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-54819028588305733522014-05-21T12:32:08.289-06:002014-05-21T12:32:08.289-06:00Well now we have a much more urgent issue to addre...Well now we have a much more urgent issue to address. So what do you believe?alexr65https://www.blogger.com/profile/10480217227677507809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-87261514462594059222014-05-21T09:57:54.900-06:002014-05-21T09:57:54.900-06:00Oh, sorry. Thought I was clear, but, looking back,...Oh, sorry. Thought I was clear, but, looking back, I didn't actually come out and say, did I?<br /><br />No, I am not. I support the quote attributed to Gandhi - "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."Nameless Cynichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963921060024737712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-63533090997475966562014-05-21T06:31:43.001-06:002014-05-21T06:31:43.001-06:00Just because your family was a Christian doesn'...Just because your family was a Christian doesn't mean you are too. So are you a Christian?alexr65https://www.blogger.com/profile/10480217227677507809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-79956491257057477132014-05-20T22:18:40.693-06:002014-05-20T22:18:40.693-06:00I didn't realize that was a requirement. If it...I didn't realize that was a requirement. If it helps, I was raised in a religious household; both grandfathers and one sisters are (or were) ministers, and my wife is a choir director at the base chapel. So I have years of study and all the resources I can use.Nameless Cynichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963921060024737712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-64078764514247070592014-05-20T19:59:16.948-06:002014-05-20T19:59:16.948-06:00Are you a Christian?Are you a Christian?alexr65https://www.blogger.com/profile/10480217227677507809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-9175997265102765292014-05-20T07:25:28.284-06:002014-05-20T07:25:28.284-06:00Actually, if you look into it, you'll find tha...Actually, if you look into it, you'll find that the "temple prostitute" explanation is fairly widely accepted in the scholarly community. But it's never been accepted in the evangelical crowd because it doesn't meet up with their preconceptions.<br /><br />And, sorry, but I know the bible pretty well. At least I didn't try to claim that murder was OK with Jesus.<br /><br />And if you don't accept that John of Patmos was prophetic, then Revelations reads like an extended hallucination. You should probably come to terms with that if you sincerely want to discuss the subject.Nameless Cynichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963921060024737712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-65456110658775391362014-05-20T06:19:42.797-06:002014-05-20T06:19:42.797-06:00I've learned in life that if you don't wan...I've learned in life that if you don't want something to be proven to you, then you'll never let yourself. You can't just blame each and every verse that condemns homosexuality on mistranslation. You need to realize that the chances that thousands of biblical scholars who know a lot more about translating and languages than you do, made the same mistake over and over again over hundreds of years are very very low. I could feed you all the proof that homosexuality is wrong and you could swear at me and make me sound like an idiot, but that doesn't make me wrong and you right. You clearly have not studied any of the Leviticus laws because if you had you'd be able to answer your questions very easily. Telling me that Revelation is just a bunch of gibberish, just shows me that you don't have avery good understanding of the Bible. So I'm not going to debate someone who clearly will never change their mind. If your open to accepting that homosexuality is wrong, and open to accepting my arguments instead of throwing them out the window, please let me know.alexr65https://www.blogger.com/profile/10480217227677507809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-14526467201578791602014-05-19T23:11:42.103-06:002014-05-19T23:11:42.103-06:00"Jesus never mentioned murder and yet murder ..."Jesus never mentioned murder and yet murder is still wrong." Excuse me?<br /><br />Matthew 19:17-22, which includes: <i>“‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”</i><br /><br />There are damned few of the OT laws you should follow, because they're the ravings of a bronze-age madman. Seriously - read it some time, with an open mind. It condones rape, murder, slavery and genocide. You try to live by it, you end up in jail.<br /><br />And, technically, it isn't that all the translations are wrong, it's that they all made the same errors, over and over again.<br /><br />And as for your last sentence in the first paragraph, I can only answer with, "Indeed. Think about it."<br /><br />Sodom and Gomorrah was about rape. In a number of ways. Most of the story is covered <a href="http://namelesscynic.blogspot.com/2009/02/huh-imagine-that.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, with a little more on it <a href="http://namelesscynic.blogspot.com/2009/01/fun-with-christians-ii_23.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. <br /><br />Yes, I've had these arguments before.<br /><br />But what about Jesus' teachings on marriage. He was pretty clear: don't get married, but if you do, don't get divorced. (Matthew 19:1-12) Your point?<br /><br />And Revelations? The whole damned thing reads like the babbling of a lotus-eater, but "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."<br /><br />Sure, you can connect that to Leviticus, if you try. On the other hand, Leviticus was written in Ancient (or Classical) Hebrew, and translated to the English through Latin. Revelations, on the other hand, was written in Koine Greek, and translated to the English through Latin (often by the same people). So if you find a few foolish consistencies, well, I don't know what to tell you.Nameless Cynichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963921060024737712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-67289552141379074782014-05-19T19:04:14.165-06:002014-05-19T19:04:14.165-06:00I think you are bringing up some very good points,...I think you are bringing up some very good points, but I also think you're ignoring some facts that must be taken into consideration. Just because we are no longer under the law doesn't mean we have the right to not follow any of the OT laws. Jesus never mentioned murder and yet murder is still wrong. So, many of the OT laws we still should follow even though we are freed from the law because of the Holy Spirit. I'd also like to point out that there are dozens of Biblical translation and all of them I have encountered openly say Homosexuality is wrong. To argue that each and every one of these translations are wrong on these particular verses is a little far fetched. And if the translators could make so many mistakes, how do you know that any part of the Bible wasn't mistranslated at some point and the entire book is now meaningless?<br /><br />What about Sodom and Gomorrah?<br /><br />Or Jesus's description of Marriage?<br /><br />Or Revelation 21:27? This verse then connects to Leviticus which would then make that verse relevant regardless of the freedom from the law.alexr65https://www.blogger.com/profile/10480217227677507809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-48394858596704689442014-05-19T15:06:22.116-06:002014-05-19T15:06:22.116-06:00You are correct. I left out Romans 1:26-32 as one ...You are correct. I left out Romans 1:26-32 as one of the places you can find Paul's brand new word, <i>arsenokoitai/arsenokoites</i>. My mistake.<br /><br />Most historians agree that the use in that context was not specifically homosexuality, but temple prostitutes. If Paul had wanted to condemn gays, he wouldn't have needed to coin a new term. There were plenty of Greek words he could have used: <i>arrenomanes, erastes, eromenos, kinaidos, paiderastïs, pathikos,</i> and many others, covering several flavors of homosexual relationships.<br /><br />But he didn't. And why not? Because taken in context, Romans 1 is specifically referring to idolatry, and in the process of condemning it, he referred to one of its related side-issues, temple prostitutes.<br /><br />Remember, in the Ten Commandments, while there's no mention of homosexuality (I'm trying really hard not to make a joke about coveting thy neighbor's ass), there is a specific reference to "thou shalt have no other gods but me."<br /><br />Not "there ARE no other gods but me," just that you can't worship any of them. And one of the ways that a Canaanite or Roman fertility god(dess) was worshipped was through the use of temple prostitutes.<br /><br />So, if Paul wasn't referring to gays in general, we're back to the problem that the Old Testament was made obsolete. Which means that anybody who chooses to use it to condemn homosexuals is just picking and choosing among OT verses to see which ones they like and which ones they don't. <br /><br />Is that what God wants you to do?Nameless Cynichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963921060024737712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-41273129250239121832014-05-18T10:00:29.004-06:002014-05-18T10:00:29.004-06:00I find it hard to believe that all these scholars ...I find it hard to believe that all these scholars translated this verse of the bible the wrong way, plus there are many other passages that condemn homosexuality. You can't prove your right, I can't prove your wrong, so well just have to disagree. Your mostly right it the last part of your argument. Jesus did revoke many if the OT laws because we are no longer under the law but surely Jesus didnt revoke a law that was written after his death by a man he appointed to share the gospel. Wouldn't God want him to only spread the current laws, not the ones revoked by Jesus's death? What about Romans 1:26-32?alexr65https://www.blogger.com/profile/10480217227677507809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-83020790167393099852014-05-16T12:49:04.417-06:002014-05-16T12:49:04.417-06:00Well, there's two ways to answer that: one is ...Well, there's two ways to answer that: one is a little more complicated than the other.<br /><br />The original word under contention here is "arsenokoites" - it's a compound word, generally assumed to have come from "arsen" meaning "male," and "koites" meaning "bed," generally with a sexual connotation. Unfortunately, this word only occurs two times in all of recorded history, and both are in the Bible: 1 Cor. 6:9; 1 Tim. 1:10. <br /><br />The <i>accepted</i> meaning is homosexual, but there isn't really a particularly compelling reason to assume that - it could just as easily refer to pederasty, or male rape. The problem is that the concept of sexual orientation, and of same-sex orientation in particular, didn't exist in the ancient world. The English term "homosexual" was not even coined until the end of the 19th century. Or it could be entirely non-sexual - "koites" translates to "bed," <i>generally</i> with a sexual connotation. Not invariably. Perhaps it simply means someone who stays in bed and refuses to work - maybe God hates the lazy. <br /><br />You're assuming a translation that we can't verify is correct, and for some reason, God hasn't seen fit to explain.<br /><br />But let's take the simpler approach: if you're a Christian, it doesn't matter what it means.<br /><br />Jesus has made atonement for mankind, once and for all, making all people one with the Father, by dying on the cross for our sins.<br /><br />By bringing a new covenant, Christ has transformed the law. The same underlying law still exists—the law of love. Jesus did not change that law at all. Rather, he fulfilled it. The old covenant, including the sacrifices, tassels and Jubilee years, had specific, physical applications of the underlying law of love. But those specifics are, in many cases, now obsolete. The spirit of the law remains, but the letter does not. The old covenant way is not the way to apply the purpose of the law. There are other ways to express our devotion to God and our love for our neighbors.<br /><br />After all, if He did not, why are priests no longer sacrificing animals to God? Why are people no longer required to be circumcised? (Actually, that one is a longer discussion, but still related.)<br /><br />The Old Testament clearly commanded the Israelites to wear blue threads in tassels on their garments (Numbers 15:38-39). Was this law inspired by God? Of course it was. So how is this law outdated? Who has the authority to declare a God-given law obsolete? Only God.<br /><br />Did the New Testament specifically rescind this law? No. It says nothing about blue tassles. But the New Testament declares the entire old covenant obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). As a la source of laws, it is no longer valid.<br /><br />And yet there are some people who insist on picking and choosing a few items to venerate, merely because those specific requirements allow them to hate somebody and still feel good about themselves.<br /><br />But there are others they ignore: Leviticus 19:19 clearly tells them "Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material." And yet, there they stand in their cotton-polyester clothes.<br /><br />So who's right?Nameless Cynichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963921060024737712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-15590436248169527492014-05-16T06:34:37.336-06:002014-05-16T06:34:37.336-06:00What about 1 Corinthians 6:9-11?What about 1 Corinthians 6:9-11?alexr65https://www.blogger.com/profile/10480217227677507809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-7604092030830043852011-09-13T17:33:11.973-06:002011-09-13T17:33:11.973-06:00Well, you do have a healthier form of Christianity...Well, you do have a healthier form of Christianity than many people do. I could argue, but it hardly seems polite at this point. So, enjoy it.Nameless Cynichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963921060024737712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-58667271436727367292011-09-13T09:46:10.838-06:002011-09-13T09:46:10.838-06:00Interesting article and a take on Leviticus I had ...Interesting article and a take on Leviticus I had not considered. However this is a tad pointless no? As a Christian and not a Jew I am not bound by the Old Testament anyways. I do like that you pointed out some of the other rules from Leviticus that we no longer feel oblige to follow.<br /><br /> The fact is there are several hundred rules the church has wipe away under the grace of Christ from the old testament and I do believe rightfully so. Christ Cleary indicate we are no longer to be bound by law simply to love God and love each other (so it does not permit people to hurt others or themselves everything else is ok) it is unfortunate however that they have chosen a few to keep to justify their own hatred.<br /><br />If it once was forbidden that is no longer relevant the New Testament is the path to salvation the Old Testament was written either as a guide to prosperity at that time or to prove to man that he could not save himself either way its purpose has been served. <br /><br />I find these kinds of argument on what we can or cannot do quoting the bible in whichever translation you please miss the whole point of the bible. It is far more difficult than the church make it out to be to anger God and fall in disfavor even the whole hell argument barely stands and truly looks to me like something they added in later to keep their control over the population. (When was hell created? There was no mention of it in the Old Testament until they decided to translate the word grave as hell for the bad people and leave it as grave for the good ones and this hundreds of years after the New Testament came along… Foolish) <br /><br />So the only thing that matters is that God loves you, he desires to be with you in your heart and soul. There is nothing you can do with your body (short of hurting yourself or others which is a reflection of your heart really) that will cause God to be angry with you ^_^ God is not an old hateful preacher nor is he commanded by them so no stress smile be light of burden and know that you are loved :DRenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05027405048481133301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20984086.post-75899681029299908112011-04-13T20:36:57.788-06:002011-04-13T20:36:57.788-06:00Hahaha, that was hilarious and awesome!! Good job!...Hahaha, that was hilarious and awesome!! Good job!!capriciousButterflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13511432825557763062noreply@blogger.com